Atheist and Christian duel on God’s existence

My favorite parts (although I've heard them so many times, I should be bored by now):

• "...packed audience of students and visitors ...with some cheering for Fitzgerald and others sporting Bibles in hand and wearing t-shirts warning that only Jesus can save you from Hell."
• "Yuon, as a Christian apologist... based much of his argument against Fitzgerald’s atheism on the claim that only a being with omniscient knowledge of the universe could know for certain that God does not exist."
• "One point on which Fitzgerald and Yuon were more or less in agreement was that the existence of God cannot be proven through naturalistic reason, a point which Fitzgerald used to refute God’s existence and which Yuon took as evidence that Fitzgerald had no rational basis on which to make that claim."
• "...Fitzgerald asked Yuon whether a number of incidents in the Bible ascribed to God which he found repulsive — such as the massacre of the Midianites by Moses or Paul’s mandate that women remain silent in church — could be considered just, to which Yuon responded that if God ordered it to be done then it was correct."
• "...Yuon doubted that Fitzgerald could make any definitive moral judgment without an absolute concept of good and evil."
• “Jokes I’ve heard about atheist groups are that you can’t have them because at every meeting everyone would just go, ‘So, you believe in God yet? No.’”

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The Standford Daily
November 28, 2007
By Andrew Valencia


The Fellowship in Christ at Stanford (FICS) sponsored a debate last night between an atheist and a Christian apologist in Tresidder Oak West, meditating on one of the oldest and most important philosophical questions: Is there a God?

Representing the atheist viewpoint was David Fitzgerald, a prominent author and coordinator for San Francisco Atheists, while Chang Yuon of Grace Church in Pleasanton supported the Christian side. The two debaters squared-off before a packed audience of students and visitors from both sides of the issue, with some cheering for Fitzgerald and others sporting Bibles in hand and wearing t-shirts warning that only Jesus can save you from Hell.

The nearly two hour-long debate kicked off with the sounds of “Eye of the Tiger” by Survivor. At the onset, Fitzgerald made it clear that he and Yuon, who have debated each other before in other venues, do not take theological arguments personally.

“We are not Jerry Springer guests, we are not gladiatorial opponents,” Fitzgerald said. “Chang and I actually like each other very much, we just think the other is completely wrong.”

Throughout the course of their debate, Fitzgerald and Yuon disagreed fundamentally on issues regarding the nature of the universe, the validity of the Bible, the philosophical basis for knowing good and evil, science and, most importantly, whether it is possible to prove or disprove the existence of God.

Yuon, as a Christian apologist, spoke in defense of the existence of the Christian God, and based much of his argument against Fitzgerald’s atheism on the claim that only a being with omniscient knowledge of the universe could know for certain that God does not exist.

“For Christians it is not that God is only in the things we cannot explain, but in all the things we can explain,” Yuon said. “Dave has to subscribe omniscience to something else. In order for Dave to be a consistent atheist, he has to be an inconsistent one.”

One point on which Fitzgerald and Yuon were more or less in agreement was that the existence of God cannot be proven through naturalistic reason, a point which Fitzgerald used to refute God’s existence and which Yuon took as evidence that Fitzgerald had no rational basis on which to make that claim.

As the focus of the discussion shifted towards more specific aspects of the Bible and Christianity, Fitzgerald stated a long list of instances in which the Christian God of the Bible is portrayed as a barbaric and cruel “Bronze Age” deity, whose behavior was more like that of a “drunken, bipolar God.”

During the question exchange, Fitzgerald asked Yuon whether a number of incidents in the Bible ascribed to God which he found repulsive — such as the massacre of the Midianites by Moses or Paul’s mandate that women remain silent in church — could be considered just, to which Yuon responded that if God ordered it to be done then it was correct.

Fitzgerald cited “reason” and “compassion” as his grounding principles, while Yuon doubted that Fitzgerald could make any definitive moral judgment without an absolute concept of good and evil.

“Human values are important to us because we are human,” Fitzgerald said. “Yes, everyone has morality around the world, but not everyone agrees on what is moral.”

The responses from the audience throughout the debate were as mixed as the composition of the attendees. While some laughed openly at Fitzgerald’s biblical comparisons, others reacted with open disapproval.

Following his claim that, “you never see atheists flying airplanes into buildings or stoning heretics,” one audience member stood up and shouted, “Stalin did! Stalin did!” Fitzgerald replied that Communism, as he sees it, is a form of political religion. Later on, Yuon incited a similar reaction from a member of the audience, who reacted to his assertion that Jesus died only for his followers by shouting, “Jesus died for everyone!”

As the debate concluded, neither of the speakers, obviously, had been convinced by the other’s arguments and still remained firm in their respective convictions. As Fitzgerald put it, “no matter how well we debate tonight, the universe is going to keep on going just the way it always has.”

There were mixed reactions among student attendees as to how well the two men presented their claims.

Some thought the results were not well balanced.

“I am a Catholic, so I do believe in God, but to be honest I thought the atheist definitely got the better of the Christian,” said Charlie Capps ‘10, who faulted Yuon for basing his arguments too heavily on a Calvinist doctrine, stating that Yuon “does not speak for me.”

And for others, simply the presence of the debate on campus was a refreshing change of pace. Cathy Bonn ‘11, an agnostic, said she had a lot of fun listening to the debaters argue. But this is the first event on campus she has heard of that has incorporated the atheist perspective.

“Jokes I’ve heard about atheist groups are that you can’t have them because at every meeting everyone would just go, ‘So, you believe in God yet? No.’”